Herewith the story of my attempts to buy a Dora the Explorer Mr. Face Plush Backpack from ToysRUs using Google Checkout. In short, Google now has my credit card number. (It’s one I use for testing, however). It feels kind of odd, to be honest.
It seems Google is obviating the merchant entirely vis the ongoing data relationship with the buyer. The registration screen states: “”Google” will appear by the charge on your credit card statement. Your card number will not be shared with the seller.”
Why on earth would anyone want this to be the case? To lose your relationship with the buyer? What information *is* passed back to ToysRUs? What rights do I have to that information, and to know how it’s used between Google and the merchant?
I clicked on the TOS, which is here. What I found noteworthy (GPC is Google Payment Company, the company Google created to drive Checkout):
You acknowledge and agree that your purchases of Products are transactions between you and the Seller, and not with GPC, Google or any of GPC’s affiliates. GPC is not a party to your purchase of Products, and GPC, Google, or other GPC affiliates are not a buyer or a seller in connection with any Payment Transaction, unless expressly designated as such in the listing of the Product on a Google Web Site.
Also, found this:
You agree that you will not use the Service to process Payment Transactions for any Products that violate this Terms of Service, other policies or rules applicable to the Service, or applicable law. The current policy that establishes the Products and other transactions that may not be paid for with the Service is provided here. Failure to comply with these limitations may result in suspension or termination of your use of the Service.
A quick check of what Google finds not worth selling shows expected stuff, like porn and drugs, but also this:
Offensive goods
Literature, products or other materials that:
* Defame or slander any person or groups of people based on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, or other factors
* Encourage or incite violent acts
* Promote intolerance or hatred
Which I suppose means that you cannot use Google Checkout to buy a DVD of this or this.
In section 7, they get to a privacy policy, which I read with interest, given my questions above. I wonder if any more than a handful of folks ever read this policy, as it’s a link inside a link inside a link, but here it is. Noteworthy:
Google clearly states that its master privacy policy applies. That can be found here. (Now that’s a link inside a link inside a link inside a link…). So to recap what Google can do with your information under that policy:
* Providing our products and services to users, including the display of customized content and advertising;
* Auditing, research and analysis in order to maintain, protect and improve our services;
* Ensuring the technical functioning of our network; and
* Developing new services.
….We may process personal information to provide our own services. In some cases, we may process personal information on behalf of and according to the instructions of a third party, such as our advertising partners.
….We have a good faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of such information is reasonably necessary to (a) satisfy any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request, (b) enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations thereof, (c) detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues, or (d) protect against imminent harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, its users or the public as required or permitted by law.
Whew. OK, back to the Checkout specific policy terms:
They collect a lot of data on you, and they keep it in one place – your Google Account. That’s pretty much what I expected. All your reg info goes there (credit card, address, etc) and then Google reserves the right to add third party data (credit reporting agencies, for example) and – here’s the nub:
…Transaction information – When you use Google Checkout to conduct a transaction, we collect information about each transaction, including the transaction amount, a description provided by the seller of the goods or services being purchased, the names of the seller and buyer, and the type of payment used.
Nowhere does it say that this information is shared back to the merchants. Were I a merchant, I’d be very wary of this.
Now, here’s the thing that might make you think. Once you start a data trail in Checkout, it stays for good, at least, it stays as long as Google wants it to:
You can disable Google Checkout by contacting us. If you do so, your payment information and transaction history will no longer be viewable through Google Checkout. However, in order to meet our reporting and auditing obligations, and to detect, deter, and prevent fraud or other misconduct on our systems, the information will be retained in our systems. If you disable Google Checkout, your personally identifiable information will not be used by Google or shared with third parties except for these purposes. We may delete these records over time if permitted or required by law.
Disabling Google Checkout does not close or cancel your Google Account. For more information about how to manage your Google Account preferences, please click here. This Privacy Policy continues to apply to the personal information we maintain after you disable Google Checkout or close or cancel your Google Account.
Put another way, don’t step in the mud if you don’t want the tracks to stay forever.
Lastly, federal law does interfere with Google using your info in certain marketing-related ways, and the privacy policy allows you to opt out. Details:
We operate the Google Checkout service through a company called Google Payment Corporation (“GPC”), a wholly-owned subsidiary of Google. The information we collect, including information obtained from third parties, is shared between GPC and Google to operate the service. Neither GPC nor Google will share your information with others except as described in this Privacy Policy.
Under federal law, you have the right to opt out of certain sharing between affiliated companies such as GPC and Google. Specifically, you may choose to opt out of:
* The sharing between GPC and Google of information that does not pertain to your transactions or experiences with Google Checkout (also called “non-transactional information”, e.g., information we may obtain from third parties to verify your identity), and
* The use by Google of information shared between GPC and Google to promote Google products and services.
Please remember, regardless of whether you choose to opt out of this sharing or not, we will never sell or rent your personal information, and we will not share your personal information with anyone outside of GPC and Google except as described in this Privacy Policy.
If you don’t want us to share non-transactional data between GPC and Google, please click here (this is a email address).
If you don’t want us to use any information shared between GPC and Google to promote Google products and services to you, please click here. (also an email, I sent both of them mail and asked to opt out).
OK, so I have now read (or re-read) three separate privacy policies, and it’s time to complete my purchase. I hit “agree” and, still on Google’s servers, get the confirmation page, hit “sign in” again and…shit, it’s not working!
What did I do wrong?
I head over to where they tell me to go – https://www.google.com/accounts/ForgotPasswd – and give them the email I use for my Google account. (It worked before, to log me in in the first place, very odd!). I reset my password, and now…where do I go? There’s not a screen inviting me back to complete my purchase! There’s no way to get back to my order! My daughter’s beloved Dora the Explorer Mr. Face Plush Backpack from ToysRUs is totally MIA!
Hmmm. I sign into my Google Checkout account, maybe that will have the purchase history. After all, they had all the information – but no. While Google did manage to capture and save my credit card info, there’s no history of my attempt to purchase the Dora backpack.
Hmmm. How about I use my Firefox history to go back to the original page where my account did not work in the first place! (Not that this is something most shoppers would ever do, but…). Hey, that should work!
Nope. “Oops! Your shopping cart has expired.”
Shit. So I’m starting over. No, wait, this has been way too much of a trial. I’ll get back to it later. Or, I’ll just go to Amazon.
Sorry Google, but mark this one in your metadata as “abandoned cart.”
A great post, John. It is rather chilling to really add up the “synergies” to be compiled between Checkout, Search logs, and Communications. This really reinforces the profound implications and – (imho) the passive aggressive abuse of power undertone – of these moves.
I sleep better by reminding myself of the fundamental power of the open community and the extreme sensitivity of the average consumer to their privacy.
At some point, the reality of the situation will be evidenced in a sufficiently tangible way to force actions (and create opportunity)to re-align the control of the consumer’s behavior back squarely where it belongs – under the individual’s complete and intuitive control. Passive aggressive behavior against this trend under the geek guise of “value-added service” is fundamentally a shallow strategy in the long run.
Naive? god, I hope not.
Just as a point on the opposite side, it seems like most people either a) go to the main Checkout page to sign up, where they can peruse the policies for a nice long time, or b) go quickly through the sign-up and assume the policies are sound. So you’re not a typical user, John, in that you started to buy but then decided to go deeply through the whole policy.
Matt, I do wonder, how many folks did Google model will use the Checkout feature when they see it as an option at the checkout process for a site like ToysRUs? Clearly what happnened to me should not happen, somehow I needed to be brought back to my purchase after registering and then having password issues.
In any case, I’d really like to know how much info Google shares with ToysRUs. Will they find out, for example, that they lost this sale? Will they get any reports on conversions? Is a Google Checkout customer, in essence, not even a ToyrRUs customer? Will I have an account at ToysRUs after buying through Checkout? etc….
John – great deep analysis of what lies beneath the Checkout system. I guess those are the hidden catches of what I’ve found to be a very quick and efficient way of checking out – especially at a store where I have no saved account. Google has my credit card information already for AdWords, so my first time using Checkout was a breeze; far easier and quicker than trying to set up my info with the merchant. And I saved $10!
Compared to PayPal, Checkout is a fabulous third-party payment processor. The financial incentive (I saved $10!) is an attractive way to get in new users, and as I said, when you’re talking about a merchant you have no history with, it’s far easier to use Checkout.
I wonder, though, if this is a case of Google getting the functionality out there ahead of thinking about privacy and other implications. It’s a big step from them knowing about your AdWords purchases to Google being the ones collecting your money for Dora. And I wonder what customer service would be like if a problem arises. Not Google’s strong suit.
But I saved $10!
Great post John. I’m wondering how Google’s privacy policy and methods of reporting compare to PayPal’s after Cap’n Ken’s comment. Is Google like everyone else when it comes to those areas? You know that they are capturing all of that information and feeding it back into its other services, because most people won’t ask to be removed. I’m concerned that most people don’t even bother to read everything you did, they just assume that it is Google so it is fine.
Isn’t this what everyone was predicting a few years back???
I use Google Checkout all the time where possible and whatever you pay with (unless it’s cash) there are footprints
For merchants, Google Checkout may offer a lower-cost credit card processing service than their current provider.
For consumers, though not everyone may trust the Great Google to secure their private info, that may seem to be a better bet right now than handing over your credit card numbers to some unknown merchant you’ve never heard of. Even if the merchant is honest, they may not be on the cutting edge technologically and end up storing all their client data in some unsecure location just waiting for someone to compromise their systems.
“You acknowledge and agree that your purchases of Products are transactions between you and the Seller, and not with GPC, Google or any of GPC’s affiliates.”
So, I assume the merchant must have the details of the transaction; otherwise,if something went wrong, Google would have to fix it. Nevertheless, most people won’t read the terms and, if something goes wrong, they will go to Google. Which could become a disaster for Google.
This issue is what’s stopped mobile network operators from offering m-commerce: They’re afraid of all the disputed charges. This will be interesting.
Hmm.
I wonder if Google gets to count Google check out purchases as *revenue*? AOL did this with all sorts of junk when you logged in to the home page, and that stuff made little to no *profit*, but made mondo “E-commerce revenue” in the 90’s, which was a big deal for the analysts.
Would be curious to see if Google got to put all of those purchases on their top line…
A general comment as a user: I use citibank virtual card service to protect my credit card number. I also like to pay directly to the merchant because I found the relationship to be helpful in case of disputes or other customer service issues. Somehow I also have an impression that if I pay directly to a merchant by credit card then I have all the credit card specific consumer laws on my side.
A technical comment as a scientist: My understanding is that Google ad buyers get a discount on Google Checkout. It seems okay for a moment unless you start digging deep in both the business models. The issue is that google sells ads via a kind of second price auction. The winner of the top slot is supposed to pay the market value of the top slot, which is decided by the advertiser who lost the top slot (whose ad is actually shown on the second slot.)
Now suppose that the loser of the top slot, i.e., the advertiser on the second slot is a Google checkout customer. In that case, the loser’s bid also included the value for the Google checkout discount. Unfairly, the winner of the top slot end up paying not only the market value of the top slot but also a component of the discount which Google pays to the loser.
What are the choices for the winner of the top slot?
1. Sign up for the Google checkout.
2. Keep paying to Google the discount which Google offers to a Google checkout advertiser.
Both of the above choices are unfair to advertisers, who do not voluntarily want to buy Google checkout product.
Disclaimer:
1. The whole analysis is involved. The above is only the high-level abstract. The analysis is scientific analysis of the coupling of two products in an auction setting.
2. The commentator is a senior researcher in Microsoft which competes with Google on several products.
I use Shopsafe from MBNA (now Bank of America), which is like Citibank virtual account numbers, to protect my card number online. I feel safe shopping with it. You can give a ShopSafe number (and I presume a Citi virtual number) to Google checkout if you do not trust Google. I have done this to test Google Checkout and it worked fine but it was slow and I didn’t like losing the link to the merchant.
Also, PayPal has a new solution called Virtual Debit Card which lets you use your PayPal account at merchants that do not accept PayPal natively by giving you a MasterCard number which effectively fronts your PayPal account for that transaction. It fills forms as well. This means that you only need PayPal online and you never have to give your credit card to anyone – why use Google Checkout at all?
I feel a sense of paranoia seeping from this article, as well as some incorrect information.
First, I realize that it is quoted to a Google statement that “Google” will appear on your credit card transaction statement. This is a bit misleading. As a merchant, you have the option for any 14 characters to appear on the credit card statement in addition to google. If you enter nothing, then Google is all that will appear. All those charges people have made to Buy.com, however, appear as Google*Buy.com (or whatever 14 characters the merchant selected), so you don’t loose the ability to track where you spend your money by examining your statement.
Second, information such as name, address, items purchased (with that particular merchant), and transaction total are shared with the merchant. The only thing the merchant doesn’t get is your credit card number, CVS, and e-mail address. A buyer can choose not to hide their e-mail from the merchant, so it is possible for that info to be passed as well.
Finally, on the issue of whether a buyer has an account with the merchant or not is left entirely up to the merchant. It’s a matter of code implementation on the merchant’s website. They can require that you have an account before you proceed to Google checkout, or they can opt to let you leave their site without ever creating an account. This is much akin to how many sites allow you to check out as a guest without creating a permanent profile, while others require one. My experience has been that either way with Google checkout, the merchant keeps a record of your purchase for returns/warranty purposes.
The errors you included stem from a misinterpretation of what is written and could easily have been avoided through experience. The old adage is true, write what you know. I think this blog was written a bit premature. Hopefully there will be a follow-up after you have some experience on both sides of google checkout system.
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thank you from veri9tas@yahoo.com
Why would anyone want google not too share your CC number with the merchant? Because it allows a less reputable company (ie Hanks Shoes) to sell online and people know that google is trustworthy with thier number, and this allows them to buy from Hanks Shoes with the security of knowing Google will stand by the sale. If you dont want to share your precious information then dont use a credit card, they do still accept cash at those places you drive by each day called “real stores”
Great post, John! Add a convoluted privacy policy to the fact that some shoppers and merchants are complaining about the user experience (delayed payouts, double, triple and even quintuple charges __ see Mercury News story today) and the question is raised if the convenience that Google Checkout offers is worth the potential cost to an individual.
i just saw this post described as a ‘scathing review’. on what planet? i thought it was fair/accurate/critical, but scathing? no. typical web headline hype.
in any case – yay checkout. paypal sucks. time they got their comeuppance. they po’d a lot of people over the years – they deserve to fall by the wayside.
I’ve always been feeling safe using my own test credit card whenever I purchase anything through the Internet. However, if it’s Google checkout, I find it to be too daunting. And my gutfeel don’t usually let me down. So there.
Checkout isn’t perfect. As a merchant you don’t have very much control if an order or charge amount needs to be adjusted. If a customer calls up asking if they can add something to their order, or combine orders for example, there are no easy way to do this for them since Checkout is designed to shield the customer from us smaller merchants.
On the other hand, if you think of Checkout is merely a brainless credit card processer, a tool to capture payments, you lower your expectations. I don’t have to handle security, Checkout does risk accessment, I get the order details, and get paid, and if I use adwords I get credit and the transactions are basically free. What’s not to like? It’s the best thing since sliced bread.
Hey John, Have you taken the time to read Paypal terms and condition. If you did then you will know that they are basically the same as Googles when it comes to purchasing porn and drugs. I will admit one thing though, I run a site and it would be a pain not getting the customers email address as I sell software. After purchasing my software I need to send the customer a unlock code to allow the customer to continue using my software.
I don’t think that Google shares the customrs email address with the seller but I could be wrong. I think it might be optional that the buyer decides if the seller can have their email address or not.
Personally I think that Google checkout is a great idea but does need to be more user
Great post John. Thanks for trudging through all the TOS and Privacy Policies, not sure how many people would actually make it that far.
It does bring up a few good questions, like whether GPC or Google have your history in their files but not in your Google Account and how they’ve tracked your trail.
There’s hardly anything worse than filling out all that data only to be booted, happened to me the other day on the Children’s Place check out. I wonder how much of my data they have? I guess the only thing worse than refilling out all that information is reading through the hieroglyphs that are the policies. So, thank you again for taking the time and dedication to read through the fluff and legal jargon. I think I’ll stick with Amazon and PayPal for now, why would I want to give out even MORE personal info when it’s already registered with those two companies?
Your post is insightful. Comment on style — you change perspective quite often from that of user to that of vendor, without giving the reader a heads-up. That forces me to wonder as I read it what you mean by “us” and “we.”
Kamal – I had the exact same thought about auction pressure when reading about the promotion. Note that as long as Checkout revenue is small compared to general ad revenue, the effect will be small as well. Still seems unfair.
Disclaimer: I work for Google, but have nothing to do w/ Checkout and this is entirely my personal opinion.
How does Google Checkout work for returns you need to make? Does the merchant have to credit you back through Google Checkout? It’s been mentioned above, but I wonder how credit card protections work if your purchase is from Google Checkout and not from the merchant.
Google has had my credit card number for a long time. This article revealed many things I didn’t know about the Google privacy policy. I really should be more careful when giving out my card #s.
Good points on many issues Google Checkout will have to face as their payment service gets more traction with shoppers. I’ve personally been in contant feedback with Google Checkout staff since lanunching a test bed site http://www.holdup-suspenders.com when GC was announced. It’s proven that the GC badge next to the merchants Adwords Ad gets better CTR. It’s also a proven that the non-shopping cart API integration, called the “Buy Now” button .XML link generator, leaves an awful lot to be desired from both a shopper & merchant’s viewpoint and buying/conversion experience. I spelled it all out for that San Jose Mercury News article.
Over all GC places a real privacy protection barrier between merchant and shopper as to Credit Card #. Other then that… 100% of Holdup Suspender shopper GC orders showed they opt-in to send their e-mail along with order fullfilment and delivery info. In all cases the GC “Buy Now” button route to any sales cannot be tracked by Google Analytics. With certain shopping carts Google Analytics becomes a black hole for tracking click to sales conversions from Adwords campaigns. I envy those merchants getting paid $10 to $20 by Google to recruit new GC members on every sale. That on top of free traffic from appearing at http://www.google.com/checkout/m.html
You’ll notice the usual suspect merchants there monitizing those BHO popup commission thieves infesting systems and peddling customer privacy info to the Adwhores at the IAB/DMA, and major affiliate networks. Thank the Google God for not allowing them access to the Google Checkout secure server pages or you’d see wholesale pillaging by the likes of MetaRewards and http://www.SecondBite.
Now if only Google would hire some staff, with real sales experience, to work out the bugs and fulfillment voids this could be a long term winner. This core group should be empowered to veto & muzzle their advertising mindset driven current management drooling over all that acquired clicksteam, shopper profile and conversion data. If not then Google becomes a fullblown parasite seeking to monitize ways to influence shoppers wherever the checkout like some sleazy Super Affiliate like Ebates,Zango, Schoolpop,Gator, and thousands of other incentive POS (Point Of Sale)attack dogs.
Thanks for the post. As a web developer I know that while you were reading the policy your session timed out. Since that information is not written to the disk but held in memory on the server (that is how the technology was designed so, there is nothing you can do about that) when the session times out the information on the purchase is lost. Totally. That would happen on any site, google or otherwise. The problem is that they set the timeout too short, or accepted the timeout default. This did not take into account that users, such as you and I, might ACTUALLY read the Privacy Policy, etc. What they should have done is factored the time it takes for a slow reader, such as myself, to read all of the policies on the site and then set the timeout to twice that. Then you would not have lost your purchase info. But again, this is not a google specific problem, other than that the timeout was not set for long enough. Simple for them to change. But then, there is a cost for them to do so, too. For each user on their server that session data takes up memory space. My guess is that google has to maximize what they’ve got, and so a shorter rather than longer timeout helps them to allow more people on the system at the same time. That’s a balancing act on their side. Tough call.
However, all that said, the legal aspect is daunting. You have to continuously read and re-read the policy statements of all of the websites where you store data because they’ve all taken to including a statement to the effect that they can change the policy at any time without notification to you and that you must read their policy continuously in order to apprise yourself of any changes, which means of course that they can make any claims they want in the future and you would be legally bound to them because you clicked the “I accept the terms” button once upon a time. That “feature” of the legal agreement forces the user to have to continuously (and I mean continuously because you never know when they may change their agreement) re-read their legal agreements. All of them. Continuously. Why? Because at any moment they can add a new legal stipulation that says that you owe them all of your money and if you fail to transfer all of your funds immediately into their accounts that you also forfeit your children as slaves to their corporate HQ in Dubai. Or whatever else they decide to come up with. All of which, according to the terms you “signed” when you clicked “I accept the terms”, is perfectly legal from their lawyer’s point of view. Too bad for you. Caveat Emptor and all that. Ha ha. Losers!
Any suggestions on other books for more advanced web site design and specifically tableless CSS designs. It is really cool to see the Web growing beyond plain html
Thanks for the recommendation! I never know where to start when I talk to people about web standards. I’ll have to point them in the direction of this book.
Have tried since Dec. 5th to get a credit refund on an item never received from ToysRUs yet BILLED to my account by Google Checkout. Item was said by ToysRUs to be back ordered yet Google Checkout said it was in the mail. No it wasn’t! Never received yet charged for it (229.98) and charged shipping (96.21) but never received. Can’t find a phone number for Google Checkout, just made my FOURTH call to ToysRUs and told for the THIRD time they’ll expidite. Even given a credit refund order number, but NO refund. I’m bent WAAAAAY out of shape. Don’t even know who you are but had to tell someone!
I too have been waiting to get a credit refund from a purchase made in Nov. that Toys-R-Us cancelled due to out of stock. This item was billed thru Google checkout as well. I’ve also been told by Toys-R-Us several times that they have expiteded the “credit request”..Can’t find any help on Google Checkout. Looks like I’ll have to file a dispute with my credit card company…
I dark place Google is taking us.
I found another BS Term in Google TOS:
“Except as set forth in this Terms of Service, all Payment Transactions processed through the Service are non-refundable to Buyer by GPC and are non-reversible by Buyer through the Service.”
A bunch of the stores support refunds. So with Google any transaction goes weather a device works or not. I believe Google is committing buyers fraud. What if a device doesn’t work and you have no right to return, or exchange a item, or no receipt to prove you paid for something. What if you goto jail cause of no proof you bought a item cause of Google Checkout. This is fraud and breach of our buyers rights. With stores you have physical evidence (The receipt). Anybody can wipe out data.
Also why should we trust Google will keep our privacy.
I was shocked when in January the government forced them to give them search requests despite privacy laws. What if big brother looks at our credit card reports from Google Checkout. You know thats wrong because bank accounts are suppose to be confidential by law but Google can betray us to anybody like a lawyer, government agent, or even a person that threatens people. Google is a betrayer of privacy rights. Look what Google did in China. Can we really trust that Google won’t share our credit cards. Google is a liar and follows the Chinese.
Google is a betrayer of privacy rights
Isn’t this what those one-time pre-loaded Visa and Mastercards you can buy at the mall for a $2.50 service fee are for? They work okay with PayPal…will they work with Google Checkout?
Thanksss
But then, there is a cost for them to do so, too. For each user on their server that session data takes up memory space. http://www.erdogduemlak.com
http://www.bolcasohbet.net
How does Google Checkout work for returns you need to make? Does the merchant have to credit you back through Google Checkout? It’s been mentioned above, but I wonder how credit card protections work if your purchase is from Google Checkout and not from the merchant.
Thanksss
i need the credit card number
can u get me hook up player
I’m pretty disappointed in GCO as well. I ordered from a place, and due to a bug where I pushed “back” on the browser my order was submitted, except it was under the wrong address. Because I used GCO, the place refused to change the shipping address, and I can only place a new order. I asked GCO to intervene and contact the seller with my correct shipping addressed but they just give me a canned nonanswer about how to use GCO.
The place says my only option is make a new order, but the camera I’m ordering is no longer at the sale price that I originally ordered it for, so I’d be $250 (the difference in sale price)
Google Checkout offers NO buyer protection. If the seller decides to keep your money and not ship you anything, that’s okay with Google! Fortunately it was only a small purchase, but I’ve learned my lesson.
I’ll never use Google Checkout again.
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I am really happy to read your post. Thank you for the ToS info. I just attempted to purchase a candle on line, but they use google check out. I felt hesitant to connect a credit card number to my google account and now I am so glad that I paused. I already have a large enough digital crumb trail on line, I have no need to expand it further with google’s assistance.
I m also afraid of using credit cards online especially when i m living in Turkey Gayrettepe.