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	<title>Comments on: Google&apos;s &quot;Opinion&quot; Sparks Interesting Dialog On Tying of Services to Search</title>
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	<description>Thoughts on the intersection of search, media, technology, and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1279</link>
		<dc:creator>Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1279</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;BTW: I would be interested to know if the changes to Google&#039;s algorithm(s) incorporated any changes to the weighting of links on getsatisfaction.com and/or mentions of brand names in articles in the New York Times (whether in the paper edition or on nytimes.com) -- and whether the publishers of those publications were consulted regarding Google&#039;s interpretation of the quality of the content on their websites.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I heard somewhere that the journalists covering the piece in the New York Times tried to reach Google representatives but were ask to take up the issue with Danny Sullivan. I wasn&#039;t aware that Danny Sullivan was doing public relations for Google, inc. -- and so that was a very &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;fascinating&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; piece of information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW: I would be interested to know if the changes to Google&#8217;s algorithm(s) incorporated any changes to the weighting of links on getsatisfaction.com and/or mentions of brand names in articles in the New York Times (whether in the paper edition or on nytimes.com) &#8212; and whether the publishers of those publications were consulted regarding Google&#8217;s interpretation of the quality of the content on their websites.</p>
<p>I heard somewhere that the journalists covering the piece in the New York Times tried to reach Google representatives but were ask to take up the issue with Danny Sullivan. I wasn&#8217;t aware that Danny Sullivan was doing public relations for Google, inc. &#8212; and so that was a very <b><i>fascinating</i></b> piece of information.</p>
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		<title>By: Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1278</link>
		<dc:creator>Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2010 17:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1278</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@David do you mean me?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have no axe to grind.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Google basically has 2 audiences:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1. people who are too lazy to type domain names correctly&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2. noobs&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So since the results on &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; search engine follow the wisdom of the language [ &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.english.net.in/wisdom-of-the-language&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://news.english.net.in/wisdom-of-the-language&lt;/a&gt; ], websites can usually be found using google (audience #1) -- for example: the top result for &quot;amazon&quot; has little / nothing to do with the Brasilian river / forest region, indeed almost all of the top 10 results have to do with amazon as a domain name.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Advertisers who try to reach noobs might want to sell steak knives, lottery tickets or subscriptions to get-rich-quick schemes. In the long run, reputable companies will not run ads in the National Enquirer or a spam-filled website.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Knowledgeable users have moved on.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Since there is no such thing as a free service, novice users may need to be protected from being fooled. Europe is a highly regulated area -- there are many laws that regulate what is permissible and what isn&#039;t. These laws are supposed to protect innocent consumers from dangers such as mad cow disease.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In the United States, there is more faith in &quot;free markets&quot;. The theory is that people will only make risky investments if they are sufficiently rewarded. However, many people have difficulty gauging how high the risks are. Therefore some companies will go bankrupt or lose a lot of money.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Google&#039;s switch to profit maximization has been viewed by many investors as a good thing -- but perhaps less so in China. Once people realize that the top result is the one that maximizes profit for Google, they may think twice before clicking on it... -- and that will ultimately dampen Google&#039;s growth prospects.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David do you mean me?</p>
<p>I have no axe to grind.</p>
<p>Google basically has 2 audiences:</p>
<p>1. people who are too lazy to type domain names correctly</p>
<p>2. noobs</p>
<p>So since the results on <b><i>any</i></b> search engine follow the wisdom of the language [ <a href="http://news.english.net.in/wisdom-of-the-language" rel="nofollow">http://news.english.net.in/wisdom-of-the-language</a> ], websites can usually be found using google (audience #1) &#8212; for example: the top result for &#8220;amazon&#8221; has little / nothing to do with the Brasilian river / forest region, indeed almost all of the top 10 results have to do with amazon as a domain name.</p>
<p>Advertisers who try to reach noobs might want to sell steak knives, lottery tickets or subscriptions to get-rich-quick schemes. In the long run, reputable companies will not run ads in the National Enquirer or a spam-filled website.</p>
<p>Knowledgeable users have moved on.</p>
<p>Since there is no such thing as a free service, novice users may need to be protected from being fooled. Europe is a highly regulated area &#8212; there are many laws that regulate what is permissible and what isn&#8217;t. These laws are supposed to protect innocent consumers from dangers such as mad cow disease.</p>
<p>In the United States, there is more faith in &#8220;free markets&#8221;. The theory is that people will only make risky investments if they are sufficiently rewarded. However, many people have difficulty gauging how high the risks are. Therefore some companies will go bankrupt or lose a lot of money.</p>
<p>Google&#8217;s switch to profit maximization has been viewed by many investors as a good thing &#8212; but perhaps less so in China. Once people realize that the top result is the one that maximizes profit for Google, they may think twice before clicking on it&#8230; &#8212; and that will ultimately dampen Google&#8217;s growth prospects.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1277</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2010 04:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1277</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Suppose, for the sake of the argument, that Google&#039;s algorithms intentionally or unintentionally favor Google products. So what? Is a search a &quot;work for hire&quot; with a promise of objectivity? Are you precluded from searching on any other engine if you believe that engine gives results more to your liking? It&#039;s an amazing and totally free service that benefits every Internet user worldwide. &lt;br /&gt;
The Europeans are looking to fund their deficit. What&#039;s your ax to grind?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose, for the sake of the argument, that Google&#8217;s algorithms intentionally or unintentionally favor Google products. So what? Is a search a &#8220;work for hire&#8221; with a promise of objectivity? Are you precluded from searching on any other engine if you believe that engine gives results more to your liking? It&#8217;s an amazing and totally free service that benefits every Internet user worldwide. <br />
The Europeans are looking to fund their deficit. What&#8217;s your ax to grind?</p>
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		<title>By: Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1276</link>
		<dc:creator>Norbert Mayer-Wittmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 22:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1276</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It would require extreme naiveté for someone not to realize that &lt;i&gt;every&lt;/i&gt; search on Google.COM (or perhaps something like 99.9% of them) returns a youtube video -- and likewise with Google&#039;s other properties. In other words: this is a really open-and-shut case. If Google wants to argue that such abnormal statistics are not engineered into Google&#039;s algorithms, they&#039;re going to have a pretty tough time -- and they would probably have to disclose their secret sauce (and even then they would probably lose). IMO this might be a pretty good time for Google investors to divest, because it looks like there may be a pretty stiff fine and also a rather bleak outlook for Google&#039;s monopoly to remain intact for much longer in Europe.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But then again I could be wrong... -- right?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;;) nmw&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would require extreme naiveté for someone not to realize that <i>every</i> search on Google.COM (or perhaps something like 99.9% of them) returns a youtube video &#8212; and likewise with Google&#8217;s other properties. In other words: this is a really open-and-shut case. If Google wants to argue that such abnormal statistics are not engineered into Google&#8217;s algorithms, they&#8217;re going to have a pretty tough time &#8212; and they would probably have to disclose their secret sauce (and even then they would probably lose). IMO this might be a pretty good time for Google investors to divest, because it looks like there may be a pretty stiff fine and also a rather bleak outlook for Google&#8217;s monopoly to remain intact for much longer in Europe.</p>
<p>But then again I could be wrong&#8230; &#8212; right?</p>
<p> <img src='http://battellemedia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  nmw</p>
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		<title>By: Dinesh Vadhia</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1275</link>
		<dc:creator>Dinesh Vadhia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1275</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I tend to think there are shades of what got Microsoft into trouble here wrt favoring its own services.  Because Google is free and users can switch to another service is not an argument when they have a market share of 80%+ in the EU and ~70% in the US.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Microsoft started incorporating utilities and tools into Windows which 3rd party developers were previously making a living from.  Next came the integration of Windows with Word, Excel and Powerpoint followed by the Office suite which was bundled by Windows OEMs.  The tight integration of Internet Explorer into Windows was Microsoft&#039;s tipping point to real trouble.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There are definite parallels between Google and Microsoft which Google dismisses with the &quot;it is free and people can switch at any time&quot; arguments but it doesn&#039;t really stand up to deep scrutiny.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to think there are shades of what got Microsoft into trouble here wrt favoring its own services.  Because Google is free and users can switch to another service is not an argument when they have a market share of 80%+ in the EU and ~70% in the US.</p>
<p>Microsoft started incorporating utilities and tools into Windows which 3rd party developers were previously making a living from.  Next came the integration of Windows with Word, Excel and Powerpoint followed by the Office suite which was bundled by Windows OEMs.  The tight integration of Internet Explorer into Windows was Microsoft&#8217;s tipping point to real trouble.</p>
<p>There are definite parallels between Google and Microsoft which Google dismisses with the &#8220;it is free and people can switch at any time&#8221; arguments but it doesn&#8217;t really stand up to deep scrutiny.</p>
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		<title>By: G</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1274</link>
		<dc:creator>G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 10:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1274</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I can&#039;t understand why the EU has chosen this case to fight Google on; when from a UK perspective, plain simple tax avoidance might be better - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6122329.ece&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6122329.ece&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Why on earth the government here sees fit to cut Google a £100 million break is beyond me.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t understand why the EU has chosen this case to fight Google on; when from a UK perspective, plain simple tax avoidance might be better &#8211; <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6122329.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6122329.ece</a><br />
Why on earth the government here sees fit to cut Google a £100 million break is beyond me.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1273</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1273</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Google does have the right to an editorial process (opinion), and if they were ‘favoring’ their services it’s perfectly fine and perfectly legal.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The question is does this right get stripped when you have a leading market share? I don’t think so, specially because there is no cost for user to switch to another service (Google is free), and they allow data portability as well.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also I don’t think any government body should decide what a search engine should or shouldn&#039;t be, this whole concept of ‘blue link ranking’ could be disrupted rending all this ranking dispute meaningless.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google does have the right to an editorial process (opinion), and if they were ‘favoring’ their services it’s perfectly fine and perfectly legal.</p>
<p>The question is does this right get stripped when you have a leading market share? I don’t think so, specially because there is no cost for user to switch to another service (Google is free), and they allow data portability as well.</p>
<p>Also I don’t think any government body should decide what a search engine should or shouldn&#8217;t be, this whole concept of ‘blue link ranking’ could be disrupted rending all this ranking dispute meaningless.</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1272</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 00:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1272</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Enjoyed this post, John.  These sorts of discussions are why I read your blog.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Now, to my comment.  Cutts writes: &quot;&lt;i&gt;(the) courts have agreed ... that there&#039;s no universally agreed-upon way to rank search results in response to a query. Therefore, web rankings (even if generated by an algorithm) are are an expression of that search engine&#039;s particular philosophy.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Open Cobra continues: &quot;&lt;i&gt;Of course, Google does this because they reward age. The older the website or article, the more it is rewarded in the search engine results.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What these comments suggest to me is that Google needs to stop being a magic box, and start being a search engine.  A search engine is something that allows a user to express his or her information need in as much detail as the user is able, and then fulfills that request.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My problem with Google is that it doesn&#039;t allow the user to express his or her information need, but instead injects its own opinions onto that need.  So when the commenter above, Open Cobra, writes that Google rewards age, what I find myself wanting is a way to express to the search engine the fact that I am looking for something newer for my query on pizza restaurants.  But this isn&#039;t just real time search.  No, because I also want to be able to say that I want results that are older when it comes to trying to find (for example) a particular quote from Bill Clinton in 1998.  I want a 1998 document in this latter case, and a 2010 document in the former case.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And Google gives me no way to express that information need, no way to add MY opinion to the mixture of search results.  I only get Google&#039;s opinion.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That has been, and continues to be, one of my biggest frustrations as a user.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed this post, John.  These sorts of discussions are why I read your blog.</p>
<p>Now, to my comment.  Cutts writes: &#8220;<i>(the) courts have agreed &#8230; that there&#8217;s no universally agreed-upon way to rank search results in response to a query. Therefore, web rankings (even if generated by an algorithm) are are an expression of that search engine&#8217;s particular philosophy.</i>&#8220;</p>
<p>Open Cobra continues: &#8220;<i>Of course, Google does this because they reward age. The older the website or article, the more it is rewarded in the search engine results.</i>&#8220;</p>
<p>What these comments suggest to me is that Google needs to stop being a magic box, and start being a search engine.  A search engine is something that allows a user to express his or her information need in as much detail as the user is able, and then fulfills that request.  </p>
<p>My problem with Google is that it doesn&#8217;t allow the user to express his or her information need, but instead injects its own opinions onto that need.  So when the commenter above, Open Cobra, writes that Google rewards age, what I find myself wanting is a way to express to the search engine the fact that I am looking for something newer for my query on pizza restaurants.  But this isn&#8217;t just real time search.  No, because I also want to be able to say that I want results that are older when it comes to trying to find (for example) a particular quote from Bill Clinton in 1998.  I want a 1998 document in this latter case, and a 2010 document in the former case.  </p>
<p>And Google gives me no way to express that information need, no way to add MY opinion to the mixture of search results.  I only get Google&#8217;s opinion.</p>
<p>That has been, and continues to be, one of my biggest frustrations as a user.</p>
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		<title>By: Open Cobra</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1271</link>
		<dc:creator>Open Cobra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 22:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2010/12/googles_opinion_sparks_interesting_dialog_on_tying_of_services_to_search.php#comment-1271</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When you get to be as big as Google, you become a target for lawsuits. Honestly, the legal issues of what Google does or doesn&#039;t do don&#039;t matter. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If the EU doesn&#039;t find that Google violated some law, another company, country, or state will try to attack them for something else. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think the bigger question is how is Google going to compete with social media?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Chris Brogan just posted an excellent example of how effective social media is for finding information. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chrisbrogan.com/they-will-never-understand&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.chrisbrogan.com/they-will-never-understand&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;People want referrals from trusted sources, friends, family, business associates. Social media can provide that information quick.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Google, in many cases, gives you results that were created years ago. If I want to know what the best pizza is in NY, I don&#039;t want to read an article that was written in 2005. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Of course, Google does this because they reward age. The older the website or article, the more it is rewarded in the search engine results. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;That&#039;s the nature of SEO. It takes time to get to the top of search results and by the time something useful makes it to the few coveted spots where people actually click, it&#039;s no longer relevant. Not in every case, of course, but many times.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Okay, I could continue but I&#039;ve gone on long enough. Just my 4 cents. &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you get to be as big as Google, you become a target for lawsuits. Honestly, the legal issues of what Google does or doesn&#8217;t do don&#8217;t matter. </p>
<p>If the EU doesn&#8217;t find that Google violated some law, another company, country, or state will try to attack them for something else. </p>
<p>I think the bigger question is how is Google going to compete with social media?</p>
<p>Chris Brogan just posted an excellent example of how effective social media is for finding information. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.chrisbrogan.com/they-will-never-understand" rel="nofollow">http://www.chrisbrogan.com/they-will-never-understand</a> </p>
<p>People want referrals from trusted sources, friends, family, business associates. Social media can provide that information quick.</p>
<p>Google, in many cases, gives you results that were created years ago. If I want to know what the best pizza is in NY, I don&#8217;t want to read an article that was written in 2005. </p>
<p>Of course, Google does this because they reward age. The older the website or article, the more it is rewarded in the search engine results. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the nature of SEO. It takes time to get to the top of search results and by the time something useful makes it to the few coveted spots where people actually click, it&#8217;s no longer relevant. Not in every case, of course, but many times.</p>
<p>Okay, I could continue but I&#8217;ve gone on long enough. Just my 4 cents. </p>
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