Comments on: NYT: No, No, NO!!! http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nyt_no_no_no Thoughts on the intersection of search, media, technology, and more. Wed, 22 May 2013 20:35:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Martyn http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11765 Martyn Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:00:06 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11765 <p>I have to agree but I found the irony that your article only existed because of the NYT amusing :)</p> I have to agree but I found the irony that your article only existed because of the NYT amusing :)

]]> By: Calvin http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11764 Calvin Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:26:53 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11764 <p>I think what the NYT clearly fails to grasp is the breadth of "user generated media". It ranges from non-commercial paintings on the wall of the digital cave like 13 year olds video taping themselves kicking each other in the nuts, to professional blogs like John's, Om's, Mike's etc...</p> <p>The main difference I see is that the latter three have "only been around a few years" compared to the NYT - but heck - it started out as a regional rag years ago, didn't it!</p> <p>This reminds me a bit of the music industry with the 4 major labels and the "indies" - perhaps John, you all need a moniker (professional + blog + media = plebedia?)</p> <p>Har-har</p> I think what the NYT clearly fails to grasp is the breadth of “user generated media”. It ranges from non-commercial paintings on the wall of the digital cave like 13 year olds video taping themselves kicking each other in the nuts, to professional blogs like John’s, Om’s, Mike’s etc…

The main difference I see is that the latter three have “only been around a few years” compared to the NYT – but heck – it started out as a regional rag years ago, didn’t it!

This reminds me a bit of the music industry with the 4 major labels and the “indies” – perhaps John, you all need a moniker (professional + blog + media = plebedia?)

Har-har

]]> By: Richard Siklos http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11763 Richard Siklos Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:10:56 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11763 <p>I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don't speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that's a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to). </p> <p>Second, about that definition, I actually wasn't trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don't agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed "overtly" commercial and, yes, "professional" ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is "often" in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article--why big media companies are coveting social media.</p> <p>Your definition of "conversational media" is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as "user-generated" media. To my eye, it's not. </p> I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don’t speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that’s a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to).

Second, about that definition, I actually wasn’t trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don’t agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed “overtly” commercial and, yes, “professional” ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is “often” in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article–why big media companies are coveting social media.

Your definition of “conversational media” is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as “user-generated” media. To my eye, it’s not.

]]> By: Richard Siklos http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11762 Richard Siklos Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:02:49 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11762 <p>I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don't speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that's a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to). </p> <p>Second, about that definition, I actually wasn't trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don't agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed "overtly" commercial and, yes, "professional" ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is "often" in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article--why big media companies are coveting social media.</p> <p>Your definition of "conversational media" is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as "user-generated" media. To my eye, it's not. </p> I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don’t speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that’s a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to).

Second, about that definition, I actually wasn’t trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don’t agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed “overtly” commercial and, yes, “professional” ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is “often” in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article–why big media companies are coveting social media.

Your definition of “conversational media” is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as “user-generated” media. To my eye, it’s not.

]]> By: Richard Siklos http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11761 Richard Siklos Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:02:23 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11761 <p>I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don't speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that's a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to). </p> <p>Second, about that definition, I actually wasn't trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don't agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed "overtly" commercial and, yes, "professional" ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is "often" in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article--why big media companies are coveting social media.</p> <p>Your definition of "conversational media" is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as "user-generated" media. To my eye, it's not. </p> I wanted to respond to a couple of points raised: You can take issue with my definition of user-generated content in the column but I don’t speak for the Times or the newspaper industry or the whole MSM (though I recognize that’s a conclusion people can and will occassionally and eagerly jump to).

Second, about that definition, I actually wasn’t trying to be flip or dismissive. To clarify, I don’t agree that Matt and Om are user-generated content because they are indeed “overtly” commercial and, yes, “professional” ventures (if you are referring to the Matt and Om that I think you are). When I say user-generated content is “often” in response to something professionally created, that is not meant as a slam against bloggers or any other form of user-generated media. That was simply the context of the article–why big media companies are coveting social media.

Your definition of “conversational media” is interesting and I suppose debates can be held over whether it is exactly the same as “user-generated” media. To my eye, it’s not.

]]> By: MattKoll http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11760 MattKoll Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:04:47 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11760 <p>As I was reading Siklos' article yesterday I reacted the same way to that identical passage, thinking, "that's rediculous. Of course user generated content can be commercially driven, and no, it isn't always dependent on professionally created media as its impetus."</p> <p>Having said that, there is no need for being totally dismissive of the journalistic profession. The model is changing, the balance is shifting -- but there is still a very important role for people who are professionally trained, skilled and experienced in ferreting out what's going on of significance, and reporting on it in an accurate, illuminating and engaging way. </p> As I was reading Siklos’ article yesterday I reacted the same way to that identical passage, thinking, “that’s rediculous. Of course user generated content can be commercially driven, and no, it isn’t always dependent on professionally created media as its impetus.”

Having said that, there is no need for being totally dismissive of the journalistic profession. The model is changing, the balance is shifting — but there is still a very important role for people who are professionally trained, skilled and experienced in ferreting out what’s going on of significance, and reporting on it in an accurate, illuminating and engaging way.

]]> By: Suds http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11759 Suds Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:51:41 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11759 <p>Professional journalism? They wish. Exactly what is a professional journalist anyway. Professions connote a standard of performance. You could call lawyers, doctors and accountants professionals because they have to meet standards set by the profession or the government. But any asshat can be a journalist. And just because you get paid for writing an article does not mean you are a professional. That's why there is no such thing as privilege that protects the identity of their sources - even though they like to imagine such privilege exists. So just where does NYT and Sultzburg get off saying there is something superior about traditional media. In my estimation there is distinctly something less. Namely they are absolutely beholden to their print advertisers. Read any print publication and you better learn read between the lines to make sure it isn't simply some PR escapade by a fortune 1000 company. One way to know what's up is to look at their advertisers. Isn't it curious how the articles in every edition seem to correspond so positively with the advertisements and the advertisers. Just a coincidence? Ha ha. So all this "professional" stuff strutted about by the media is just so much BS. Professional my rear. Don't forget who hired Jason Blair and a number of other fakes: NYT. Give me the bloggers any day. My granny can read the dead trees. By they way, when is the NYT going carbon neutral? When hell boils over I guess. Give me the bloggers. I trust the people who don't have an agenda, or are not afraid to say what their true position is, or have actually done something other than take write articles. For the most part bloggers know a lot more about what they are talking about because they are the actual doers, not the fly-over, deadline driven, advertising hungry stooges that constitute 95% of the traditional press. Wowie, a journalism degree from Columbia. I'd rather read the blog of an engineering degree from University of Phoenix any day. I don't need some editor in New York or LA figuring out what is worthy for me to read, what is appropriate for me to comprehend, what is a suitable point of view for me adopt. In fact, the main media is today generally lot of losers, sore losers, who are not only far less professional than your average quality blogger, but also far less credible. And by the way, the big name journalists are a bunch of conceited #$*&'s too. Journalists are not the only ones in trouble. The next group that's going to get their butt handed to them on a platter are the broadcasters.</p> Professional journalism? They wish. Exactly what is a professional journalist anyway. Professions connote a standard of performance. You could call lawyers, doctors and accountants professionals because they have to meet standards set by the profession or the government. But any asshat can be a journalist. And just because you get paid for writing an article does not mean you are a professional. That’s why there is no such thing as privilege that protects the identity of their sources – even though they like to imagine such privilege exists. So just where does NYT and Sultzburg get off saying there is something superior about traditional media. In my estimation there is distinctly something less. Namely they are absolutely beholden to their print advertisers. Read any print publication and you better learn read between the lines to make sure it isn’t simply some PR escapade by a fortune 1000 company. One way to know what’s up is to look at their advertisers. Isn’t it curious how the articles in every edition seem to correspond so positively with the advertisements and the advertisers. Just a coincidence? Ha ha. So all this “professional” stuff strutted about by the media is just so much BS. Professional my rear. Don’t forget who hired Jason Blair and a number of other fakes: NYT. Give me the bloggers any day. My granny can read the dead trees. By they way, when is the NYT going carbon neutral? When hell boils over I guess. Give me the bloggers. I trust the people who don’t have an agenda, or are not afraid to say what their true position is, or have actually done something other than take write articles. For the most part bloggers know a lot more about what they are talking about because they are the actual doers, not the fly-over, deadline driven, advertising hungry stooges that constitute 95% of the traditional press. Wowie, a journalism degree from Columbia. I’d rather read the blog of an engineering degree from University of Phoenix any day. I don’t need some editor in New York or LA figuring out what is worthy for me to read, what is appropriate for me to comprehend, what is a suitable point of view for me adopt. In fact, the main media is today generally lot of losers, sore losers, who are not only far less professional than your average quality blogger, but also far less credible. And by the way, the big name journalists are a bunch of conceited #$*&’s too. Journalists are not the only ones in trouble. The next group that’s going to get their butt handed to them on a platter are the broadcasters.

]]> By: Tim http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11758 Tim Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:52:48 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11758 <p>conversationalmedia.com is registered by Hammock Publishing ;-)</p> conversationalmedia.com is registered by Hammock Publishing ;-)

]]> By: Salman FF http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11757 Salman FF Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:52:03 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11757 <p>There was a great quote in the web 2.0 summit discussion with Sulzberger, where he is trying to make the point about the high cost of maintaining a news organization like the New York Times. He says something to the effect that: “It costs a lot of money to send Thomas Friedman over to Iraq.” It reminded my of the way proprietary software vendors would describe how costly it is to maintain and debug “great” software. Contrast that to the open source way: Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow... and thus inexpensive. <br /> To Daniel and Trogdor's points, Conversational Media seems to be about ‘given enough bloggers, all local events/opinions are part of the global conversation (or something to that effect :) ) (i.e. A Thomas Friedman wouldn’t have to travel as often. He is just PART of the conversation.)<br /> It’s just so hard to change an entrenched model and mind-set, when your business depends on it!</p> There was a great quote in the web 2.0 summit discussion with Sulzberger, where he is trying to make the point about the high cost of maintaining a news organization like the New York Times. He says something to the effect that: “It costs a lot of money to send Thomas Friedman over to Iraq.” It reminded my of the way proprietary software vendors would describe how costly it is to maintain and debug “great” software. Contrast that to the open source way: Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow… and thus inexpensive.
To Daniel and Trogdor’s points, Conversational Media seems to be about ‘given enough bloggers, all local events/opinions are part of the global conversation (or something to that effect :) ) (i.e. A Thomas Friedman wouldn’t have to travel as often. He is just PART of the conversation.)
It’s just so hard to change an entrenched model and mind-set, when your business depends on it!

]]> By: Jeremy http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11756 Jeremy Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:14:07 +0000 http://battellemedia.com/archives/2007/01/nyt_no_no_no.php#comment-11756 <p>Who are Om, Matt and Mike? Can you provide some links?</p> Who are Om, Matt and Mike? Can you provide some links?

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