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	<title>Comments on: Yahoo&apos;s Jeremy Is Disappointed, I&apos;m Bewildered</title>
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	<description>Thoughts on the intersection of search, media, technology, and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Sennhauser</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17704</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Sennhauser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17704</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;&quot;It can&#039;t be done&quot; ?? - In some countries, it&#039;s the law&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Most European countries have data-protection laws that grant individuals the exact rights which John was asking for, not only of government agencies, but also any private firm.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://dmzwg1-002.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/datapr.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Example: Switzerland&lt;/a&gt; (this is only the part of the law concerning transfer of data abroad. The law also contains the exact rights as stipulated by John to any person in Switzerland against the collectors of data). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I find it a very interesting piece of cultural difference that US citizens don&#039;t care about their data being traded and  (mis-) used by virtually everyone who can afford to pay for it. Why in the world should I trust a commercial company, whos first goal is to make money, more than the government which should be in my service (not that I trust them, either)? &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;It can&#8217;t be done&#8221; ?? &#8211; In some countries, it&#8217;s the law</b><br />
Most European countries have data-protection laws that grant individuals the exact rights which John was asking for, not only of government agencies, but also any private firm.  <a href="http://dmzwg1-002.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home/legaff/Fact/datapr.html" rel="nofollow">Example: Switzerland</a> (this is only the part of the law concerning transfer of data abroad. The law also contains the exact rights as stipulated by John to any person in Switzerland against the collectors of data). </p>
<p>I find it a very interesting piece of cultural difference that US citizens don&#8217;t care about their data being traded and  (mis-) used by virtually everyone who can afford to pay for it. Why in the world should I trust a commercial company, whos first goal is to make money, more than the government which should be in my service (not that I trust them, either)? </p>
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		<title>By: Neil Mix</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17703</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Mix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17703</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Google history is an aggregation of personal search data that is almost certainly stored &lt;i&gt;in addition to&lt;/i&gt; rather than &lt;i&gt;in place of&lt;/i&gt; regular search logs.  As such, Google history only solves the &quot;see my data&quot; problem. (By saying it &quot;solves&quot; this problem, we assume that history can be enabled by default for &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; Google search users, registered with Google or not, and still meet scaling demands.  It also assumes that Google history would grow to encompass all forms of personal information that is logged, such as click paths and page views.)  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The &quot;update my data&quot; problem is significantly harder, for the reason I stated before: the entirety of your personal information is spread out amongst vast numbers of gigantic log files.  These files are stored on GFS, which is not designed for efficient random write access.  The scale problems are tremendous.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is not to say it &lt;i&gt;can&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; be done, only that it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;hard to do&lt;/i&gt;.  It would be great if one of the major search providers implemented John&#039;s suggestions.  My comments are in response to the John&#039;s tone of voice, through which he suggests that this problem is easy to solve.  I don&#039;t believe that is the case.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Google history is an aggregation of personal search data that is almost certainly stored <i>in addition to</i> rather than <i>in place of</i> regular search logs.  As such, Google history only solves the &#8220;see my data&#8221; problem. (By saying it &#8220;solves&#8221; this problem, we assume that history can be enabled by default for <i>all</i> Google search users, registered with Google or not, and still meet scaling demands.  It also assumes that Google history would grow to encompass all forms of personal information that is logged, such as click paths and page views.)  </p>
<p>The &#8220;update my data&#8221; problem is significantly harder, for the reason I stated before: the entirety of your personal information is spread out amongst vast numbers of gigantic log files.  These files are stored on GFS, which is not designed for efficient random write access.  The scale problems are tremendous.</p>
<p>This is not to say it <i>can&#8217;t</i> be done, only that it&#8217;s <i>hard to do</i>.  It would be great if one of the major search providers implemented John&#8217;s suggestions.  My comments are in response to the John&#8217;s tone of voice, through which he suggests that this problem is easy to solve.  I don&#8217;t believe that is the case.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Zawodny</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17702</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Zawodny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17702</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m a little late to the party on this one (yesterday was... uhm, busy) but other folks seemed to have covered this pretty well.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Policy issues aside, it&#039;s a technically hard problem due to the sheer scale of the infrastructure involved in collecting, organizing, crunching, and using that data.  There are home-grown tools, third party commerical tools we don&#039;t have souruce code to, and many groups involved.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Had the system been designed with that goal in mind from day #1 (who&#039;d have thought to do that years ago?), it&#039;d be one thing.  But this is a very large retrofit project.  And we&#039;re still strugling to find enough great engineers to build things we&#039;ve had on the drawing boards for quite some time now.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little late to the party on this one (yesterday was&#8230; uhm, busy) but other folks seemed to have covered this pretty well.</p>
<p>Policy issues aside, it&#8217;s a technically hard problem due to the sheer scale of the infrastructure involved in collecting, organizing, crunching, and using that data.  There are home-grown tools, third party commerical tools we don&#8217;t have souruce code to, and many groups involved.</p>
<p>Had the system been designed with that goal in mind from day #1 (who&#8217;d have thought to do that years ago?), it&#8217;d be one thing.  But this is a very large retrofit project.  And we&#8217;re still strugling to find enough great engineers to build things we&#8217;ve had on the drawing boards for quite some time now.</p>
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		<title>By: roopa</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17701</link>
		<dc:creator>roopa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17701</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well I would probably agree with the lot that say it is near impossible... but i&#039;d also say, that is probably the agenda of these companies to invade  privacy, in order to reduce us to the consumers we have become! If we regulate what the search engines can use on us then the whole pile of knowledge or minable information becomes redundant because it is inaccurate and incomplete. &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I would probably agree with the lot that say it is near impossible&#8230; but i&#8217;d also say, that is probably the agenda of these companies to invade  privacy, in order to reduce us to the consumers we have become! If we regulate what the search engines can use on us then the whole pile of knowledge or minable information becomes redundant because it is inaccurate and incomplete. </p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17700</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17700</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Privacy is ignored when people enjoy free online services. This may turn out a big issue for some people in the future. See more at&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Privacy is ignored when people enjoy free online services. This may turn out a big issue for some people in the future. See more at<br />
<a href="http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/" rel="nofollow">http://ybzheng.wordpress.com/2006/01/25/googles-privacy-concerns/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe Hunkins</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17699</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Hunkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17699</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;John, I&#039;m floored to see so many question your approach which offers at the least an excellent starting point for the debate that should be raging over *commercial* use of OUR DATA that is PROVIDED BY US, and is ABOUT US!   &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The same people who seem to worry that GW will toss them into Guantanamo after viewing their search history have few concerns about getting quietly and secretly assaulted by an SE marketing department gone wild.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Processing search data via a control panel for those that request this should NOT be a huge challenge (this is what cheap scalable parallel processing was made for, OR just use a local program on the users computer!). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Google Analytics (formerly Urchin) does a far more robust analysis of websites at a far greater level of detail than would be needed to simply review search queries.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I&#8217;m floored to see so many question your approach which offers at the least an excellent starting point for the debate that should be raging over *commercial* use of OUR DATA that is PROVIDED BY US, and is ABOUT US!   </p>
<p>The same people who seem to worry that GW will toss them into Guantanamo after viewing their search history have few concerns about getting quietly and secretly assaulted by an SE marketing department gone wild.</p>
<p>Processing search data via a control panel for those that request this should NOT be a huge challenge (this is what cheap scalable parallel processing was made for, OR just use a local program on the users computer!). </p>
<p>Google Analytics (formerly Urchin) does a far more robust analysis of websites at a far greater level of detail than would be needed to simply review search queries.</p>
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		<title>By: Xavier Casanova</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17698</link>
		<dc:creator>Xavier Casanova</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17698</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;d be the first one to buy - however, I believe there is no market for this. Just like you said, &quot;95% of the public will never edit&quot;. A service like this would be nice (very nice), but who would pay for this, east of the Bay Area hills? &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d be the first one to buy &#8211; however, I believe there is no market for this. Just like you said, &#8220;95% of the public will never edit&#8221;. A service like this would be nice (very nice), but who would pay for this, east of the Bay Area hills? </p>
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		<title>By: Chris Law</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17697</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Law</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17697</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;John I think that you are basically asking for companies to really follow the Attention Trust model and give users control over their data.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It’s an issue that Paul Martino and I at Aggregate Knowledge have been following closely as we have been building out our attention/behavior based recommendation engine. We must give users access to that data and allow them to really have control over it. We aren’t there yet but we are actively working with Seth Goldstein at Attention Trust to figure out the best way for us to do it. I envision a future where you’ll be able to use an Attention Trust interface to get at data that you have created on our servers or anyone’s.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One place where I think that you and others aren’t going far enough is in only asking our online service providers to give us this control. Why doesn’t Visa give me this control? How about my bank? I’m just as concerned if not more so of THAT information getting into the wrong hands than I am about my search behavior.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John I think that you are basically asking for companies to really follow the Attention Trust model and give users control over their data.</p>
<p>It’s an issue that Paul Martino and I at Aggregate Knowledge have been following closely as we have been building out our attention/behavior based recommendation engine. We must give users access to that data and allow them to really have control over it. We aren’t there yet but we are actively working with Seth Goldstein at Attention Trust to figure out the best way for us to do it. I envision a future where you’ll be able to use an Attention Trust interface to get at data that you have created on our servers or anyone’s.</p>
<p>One place where I think that you and others aren’t going far enough is in only asking our online service providers to give us this control. Why doesn’t Visa give me this control? How about my bank? I’m just as concerned if not more so of THAT information getting into the wrong hands than I am about my search behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Stewart Butterfield</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17696</link>
		<dc:creator>Stewart Butterfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17696</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;can&#039;t this be automated?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not sure, to be honest. The idea of someone reading your mail when you leave yourself logged on at a public terminal is bad enough - imagine if they could see your search history, the times your most likely to be online, links clicked on, etc ... and then make changes by filling out a form. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyway, very, VERY, complex. Desirable, but almost impossibly hard to do right.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;can&#8217;t this be automated?&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure, to be honest. The idea of someone reading your mail when you leave yourself logged on at a public terminal is bad enough &#8211; imagine if they could see your search history, the times your most likely to be online, links clicked on, etc &#8230; and then make changes by filling out a form. </p>
<p>Anyway, very, VERY, complex. Desirable, but almost impossibly hard to do right.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Konsor</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17695</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Konsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2006/01/yahoos_jeremy_is_disappointed_im_bewildered.php#comment-17695</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think it would be helpful if some reputable organization, such as the EFF, provided a list of what sort of data users should be allowed to manage and who should be allowed to manage it.  I personally would love to enable my users to manage their data, and I know how to acheive it technically, but I&#039;m confused as to which data they should have access to (I have a lot, in lots of different forms) and who should have access to it (should it be done by IP, or user ID, etc.  And should your spouse be able to see it, how about your parents, etc..).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it would be helpful if some reputable organization, such as the EFF, provided a list of what sort of data users should be allowed to manage and who should be allowed to manage it.  I personally would love to enable my users to manage their data, and I know how to acheive it technically, but I&#8217;m confused as to which data they should have access to (I have a lot, in lots of different forms) and who should have access to it (should it be done by IP, or user ID, etc.  And should your spouse be able to see it, how about your parents, etc..).</p>
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