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	<title>Comments on: Search Engine Loyalty, A9 Prognostications&#8230;</title>
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	<description>Thoughts on the intersection of search, media, technology, and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Kendall Willets</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24375</link>
		<dc:creator>Kendall Willets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2004 06:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24375</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m surprised none of the search engines has added a proxy service to gather these statistics more objectively.  The google cache is almost a proxy already, and they could keep it up to date, if they were smart.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Some of those old free ISP&#039;s like NetZero used to gather stats like that.  Their users were chained to a proxy for ad serving, and every click was tracked.  Any pretense of privacy was signed away.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised none of the search engines has added a proxy service to gather these statistics more objectively.  The google cache is almost a proxy already, and they could keep it up to date, if they were smart.</p>
<p>Some of those old free ISP&#8217;s like NetZero used to gather stats like that.  Their users were chained to a proxy for ad serving, and every click was tracked.  Any pretense of privacy was signed away.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McGee</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24374</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2004 04:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24374</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Seun -- thanks for the reply. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I understand your points, and agree with you to some degree, but:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1) If the excerpts that a search engine shows were always enough to tell you whether that&#039;s the page you&#039;re looking for, we&#039;d all be a lot happier with search engines in general, wouldn&#039;t we? Plus, with the way some folks rig their content to take advantage of the SERP excerpt, what you see there isn&#039;t always the most accurate barometer of what the page is really about.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;2) I was wondering if there would be some sort of measuring going on like you suggest. But even if there is, it&#039;s still not reliable enough:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;a) How quickly would you have to click BACK for A9 to know that site wasn&#039;t what you wanted? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? A minute? I don&#039;t always know that quickly if the site is what I&#039;m looking for, and I often go several pages into a site before I know, rendering the BACK button useless.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;b) What about a situation where I click on an A9 link, spend a minute or two at the site, decide it&#039;s not what I&#039;m looking for, and then leave to go try another search engine? I never return to A9. Yet, A9 thinks I found what I was looking for and starts suggesting this site to other users making the same query.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I could go on, but I do understand your points. I&#039;m still unconvinced about the reality of using clicks in the SERPs as a tool to recommend sites. A click isn&#039;t always a recommendation, and A9 would be hard-pressed (IMO) to start determining when a click is or isn&#039;t with any level of accuracy.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One solution might be: when you revisit your past searches, in the space near where they tell you &quot;You clicked this site 24 hours ago&quot;, they could add a quick little &quot;Do you recommend this site for this search?&quot; and let me choose Yes/No. Then again, that idea is ripe for abuse as Company B tells all its people to click &quot;NO&quot; about Company A&#039;s web site. Hehehehe.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seun &#8212; thanks for the reply. </p>
<p>I understand your points, and agree with you to some degree, but:</p>
<p>1) If the excerpts that a search engine shows were always enough to tell you whether that&#8217;s the page you&#8217;re looking for, we&#8217;d all be a lot happier with search engines in general, wouldn&#8217;t we? Plus, with the way some folks rig their content to take advantage of the SERP excerpt, what you see there isn&#8217;t always the most accurate barometer of what the page is really about.</p>
<p>2) I was wondering if there would be some sort of measuring going on like you suggest. But even if there is, it&#8217;s still not reliable enough:</p>
<p>a) How quickly would you have to click BACK for A9 to know that site wasn&#8217;t what you wanted? 10 seconds? 30 seconds? A minute? I don&#8217;t always know that quickly if the site is what I&#8217;m looking for, and I often go several pages into a site before I know, rendering the BACK button useless.</p>
<p>b) What about a situation where I click on an A9 link, spend a minute or two at the site, decide it&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m looking for, and then leave to go try another search engine? I never return to A9. Yet, A9 thinks I found what I was looking for and starts suggesting this site to other users making the same query.</p>
<p>I could go on, but I do understand your points. I&#8217;m still unconvinced about the reality of using clicks in the SERPs as a tool to recommend sites. A click isn&#8217;t always a recommendation, and A9 would be hard-pressed (IMO) to start determining when a click is or isn&#8217;t with any level of accuracy.</p>
<p>One solution might be: when you revisit your past searches, in the space near where they tell you &#8220;You clicked this site 24 hours ago&#8221;, they could add a quick little &#8220;Do you recommend this site for this search?&#8221; and let me choose Yes/No. Then again, that idea is ripe for abuse as Company B tells all its people to click &#8220;NO&#8221; about Company A&#8217;s web site. Hehehehe.</p>
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		<title>By: Seun Osewa</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24373</link>
		<dc:creator>Seun Osewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24373</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Matt,&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I couldn&#039;t help but mention that your observation is really insightful.  However, &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;1) Search engines like google include excerpts of the web pages returned in results, so to an extent the user knows what to expect in a page before clicking the link.&lt;br /&gt;
2) If a user clicks the back button less than a particular number of seconds after visiting a page, and then clicks another link on the same result page, we can assume that he wasn&#039;t satisfied with the original link he clicked.  A9.com can track this.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Best Regards,&lt;br /&gt;
Seun Osewa &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t help but mention that your observation is really insightful.  However, </p>
<p>1) Search engines like google include excerpts of the web pages returned in results, so to an extent the user knows what to expect in a page before clicking the link.<br />
2) If a user clicks the back button less than a particular number of seconds after visiting a page, and then clicks another link on the same result page, we can assume that he wasn&#8217;t satisfied with the original link he clicked.  A9.com can track this.</p>
<p>Best Regards,<br />
Seun Osewa </p>
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		<title>By: Matt McGee</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24372</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24372</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here&#039;s the thing for me: Amazon can tell me &quot;People who bought this item also bought....&quot; because those users have taken a definitive action and made a definitive statement to say, &quot;Yes, I&#039;m buying this product, too.&quot; The fact that a purchase is made is an endorsement, and can be assumed to mean &quot;this is what I&#039;m looking for.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;When you port that over to A9, the only definitive statement the user makes in the SERPs is to click a link. It doesn&#039;t cost the user any money, so there&#039;s no definitive endorsement going on like you have with an actual purchase. And -- very often, the user clicks to a site that is NOT what s/he&#039;s looking for.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;So, when A9 starts saying, &quot;People who searched for this term visited these web sites...&quot;, how do they know if the user actually found those sites helpful? How do they know if that&#039;s actually what the user was looking for? Clicking a link in a SERP is not necessarily the same level of recommendation as buying a related product.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing for me: Amazon can tell me &#8220;People who bought this item also bought&#8230;.&#8221; because those users have taken a definitive action and made a definitive statement to say, &#8220;Yes, I&#8217;m buying this product, too.&#8221; The fact that a purchase is made is an endorsement, and can be assumed to mean &#8220;this is what I&#8217;m looking for.&#8221;</p>
<p>When you port that over to A9, the only definitive statement the user makes in the SERPs is to click a link. It doesn&#8217;t cost the user any money, so there&#8217;s no definitive endorsement going on like you have with an actual purchase. And &#8212; very often, the user clicks to a site that is NOT what s/he&#8217;s looking for.</p>
<p>So, when A9 starts saying, &#8220;People who searched for this term visited these web sites&#8230;&#8221;, how do they know if the user actually found those sites helpful? How do they know if that&#8217;s actually what the user was looking for? Clicking a link in a SERP is not necessarily the same level of recommendation as buying a related product.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kendall Willets</title>
		<link>http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24371</link>
		<dc:creator>Kendall Willets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2004 17:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://battellemedia.com/archives/2004/04/search_engine_loyalty_a9_prognostications.php#comment-24371</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;User behavior is one of the underutilized sources of information for web search, primarily because the content is separate from the index.  For a long time SE&#039;s were reluctant to put in tracking redirects, even though they only need a small sample to get viable results.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There&#039;s a paper I read a few months ago that explores some of this concept in an intranet environment (and, BTW, shows why the Google search appliance is a bad idea):&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Current search engines generally utilize link analysis techniques to improve the ranking of returned web-pages. However, the same techniques applied to a small Web, such as a website or an intranet Web, cannot achieve the same level of performance because the link structure is different from the global Web. In this paper we proposed a novel method of generating implicit link structure based on users? access patterns, and then apply a modified PageRank algorithm to produce the ranking of web-pages. Our experimental results indicate that the proposed method outperforms keyword-based method by 16%, explicit link-based PageRank by 20% and DirectHit by 14%, respectively.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.aspx?tr_id=644&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.aspx?tr_id=644&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
While I&#039;m at it, here&#039;s a link to the blog I got it from:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;a&gt;CleverCS&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>User behavior is one of the underutilized sources of information for web search, primarily because the content is separate from the index.  For a long time SE&#8217;s were reluctant to put in tracking redirects, even though they only need a small sample to get viable results.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a paper I read a few months ago that explores some of this concept in an intranet environment (and, BTW, shows why the Google search appliance is a bad idea):</p>
<blockquote><p>
Current search engines generally utilize link analysis techniques to improve the ranking of returned web-pages. However, the same techniques applied to a small Web, such as a website or an intranet Web, cannot achieve the same level of performance because the link structure is different from the global Web. In this paper we proposed a novel method of generating implicit link structure based on users? access patterns, and then apply a modified PageRank algorithm to produce the ranking of web-pages. Our experimental results indicate that the proposed method outperforms keyword-based method by 16%, explicit link-based PageRank by 20% and DirectHit by 14%, respectively.
</p></blockquote>
<p><a><br />
</a><a href="http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.aspx?tr_id=644" rel="nofollow">http://research.microsoft.com/research/pubs/view.aspx?tr_id=644</a>
</p>
<p>
While I&#8217;m at it, here&#8217;s a link to the blog I got it from:<br />
<a>CleverCS</a>.</p>
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